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crank baits and depth
Anonymous User
Date: May 21, 2008 10:11PM
I attended a seminar at MSW some time ago given by LEE BROWN where he gave info
on trolling with rubber bands and sinkers.
Something i missed or forgot. If a #5 shadrap runs 7ft deep on 10lb line at 100ft back.
How much weight and how far up your line do you attach the weight to add X amount of depth?
Is there a formula for that. Looking to get a #5 down to 15-20ft without lead core.
TL

Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: mvardane
Date: May 21, 2008 11:36PM
I have been using the XPS keel weights from BPS. The trolling guide book has a page (I am at work and don't have the book with me) on how much depth they will add to your lure for a given weight.I run fire line to the keel weight, flouro as long as the rod down to the lure. I do actually catch a fish once in a while using this method.

Last year about this time we all had a very lengthy string about this very subject. There was an overwhelming majority of fishermen who swore by lead core. They noted one significant advantage: Lead core will follow your boat around a point, where fire line/keel weight will cut across the point. As for fire line cutting across a point, it sure does. Never having used lead core, I can only trust what others say.

I really like the no stretch on the fire line. Even with 120' of line out, I can still feel that #5 or #7 shad rap. If it picks up a leaf or something, I know instantly and pump the rod to free whatever it picked up.

Let me know if you need the depth charts. I can look them up Thursday or Friday.

I hope this helps.

Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: walleyesrus
Date: May 22, 2008 07:48AM
Snap weights are 100% speed dependant so trial and error is your best bet. The heavier weight and slower speed the deeper it will go if you are hitting bottom reel in or speed up.

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Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: coyotewhacker
Date: May 22, 2008 08:12AM
Terry....I happen to have the trolling Bible handy, so I can give you the numbers. There are two methods of trolling with Snap Weights. One is called the 20 Plus method and it works like this: If you attach a 1 oz weight exactly 20 feet in front of your lure, it will run 33% deeper than it normally would with a given amount of line out. If you were targeting 15 feet, that means you would go to the dive curves and find the amount of line out required to get your lure down to 11 or 12 feet, let out 20 feet of line, attach your 1 oz snap weight, then let out the remainining amount of line to get to the number that would normally give you 11 or so feet of dive. The 12 foot curve would put you at 16 feet (12 x 1/3 = 4 ft.
additional depth), so that is very close unless the bottom is at 15 feet. To get down to 25 feet, find the dive curve to get to 18 feet....(18 x 1/3 = 6 additional feet for a total dive depth of 24 ft...pretty close) . Repeat the process: let out 20 ft of line, clip on a 1 oz weight or put it on with the rubber band as Lee showed, then let out the rest of the line as indicated by the 18 ft dive curve. Just make sure that you read the "correct" dive curve for either Fireline or mono line. As you well know, Fireline will allow a lure to dive deeper than the equivalent mono.
The second method is called the 50/50 method and has more variables. This method depends on boat speed and the amount of weight on the line. Lure weights on the chart vary from 1/2 oz on up to 3 oz. Each weight has a depth range of about 12 feet. The slower the boat goes, the deeper the lure runs. Looking at the chart there is one combination that
covers what you are looking for. The 1-1/2oz weight will yield depths of 12 to 24 feet (approximately), with a 2mph trolling speed giving you a depth range of 12 to 16 feet, a 1-1/2mph trolling speed giving you about 16 to 20 feet of depth, and a 1mph trolling speed will let your lure dive to a depth of 20 to 24 feet. The system works like this:
let out 50 feet of line and attach the weight. Let out another 50 feet of line and commence your trolling pass. You can also use a planer board clipped on the line at the 100 ft mark if you wish. The amount of line between the board and the rod does not affect the depth...only the boat speed and the amount of weight. Keep in mind that the system is highly dependent on boat speed, and making turns changes the speed of the lure (and weight). Inside turns slow down line speed and will allow everything to go deeper. Outside turns speed up the line and pull everything higher in the water colum. In that respect, the 50/50 system reacts much like leadcore. If you suddenly find yourself in skinny water, you can punch the throttle to speed up and try to raise the lure above the bottom.
I use the 50/50 method occasionally, especially if a planer board is involved. If you're fishing alone, it can get pretty dicey trying to reel in a fish, remove the planer board smoothly, reel in some more and remove the Snap Weight, and then net the fish, but the system does work and does let you move lures away from the boat when the water gets clear.
Hope this helps.
CW



A man has got to know his limitations.
"Dirty Harry" Callaghan

Re: crank baits and depth
Anonymous User
Date: May 22, 2008 08:37AM
Thanks guys. Going to try it.
TL

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Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: coyotewhacker
Date: May 22, 2008 08:46AM
After you give this a shot, I'll bet that you come back to leadcore. The only advantage I have found is the ability to use a planer board, and even that is offset if you use segmented leadcore. However, it does work well for controlling the depth of trolled spinner rigs if you don't want to bottom bounce or want to get the spinners away from the boat. Good luck.
CW



A man has got to know his limitations.
"Dirty Harry" Callaghan

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Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: mcmatt
Date: May 22, 2008 10:04AM
The "20-Plus" methodology as described in the Trolling Bible is seriously flawed. JC1 confirmed this at walleye U. The missing (and most important) element is SPEED. All weight-based methodologies are completely speed dependent, which you can easily prove. All these lures will sink to the bottom if you move slow enough, all will ride on top if you go too fast. The fishable speeds in the middle all impact the depth of the lure significantly.

What Lee said.



__________________________________________

One Crankbait is Too Many, But a Thousand is Not Enough

Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: walleyesrus
Date: May 22, 2008 07:36PM
You beat me to it Matt thats leaving out the biggest variable. I still say it ain't rocket science let tham out til they drag then reel them in.:nerd:

Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: theeyeshaveit
Date: May 23, 2008 10:43AM
How many colors on leadcore to get a flicker shad 15-20 feet deep? 2-21/2? Also how much rain did you get last night? I heard that Butler got 4-5 inches. Any help would be appreciated. Sounds like your tournament went well.

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Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: REELXTC
Date: May 23, 2008 11:10AM
Hi,

The "rule of thumb" is 5' of depth per color (30'). Therefore, you're talking 3-4 colors at approx 2mph to get your bait 15-20 feet deep.

I would recommend using a line counter reel with leadcore. It's allows you to be much more repeatable which is the name of the game.



...REELXTC...


LUND PRO-V 2025 IFS POWERED BY YAMAHA

NPAA #547


<*}}}}}}><
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2008 11:11AM by REELXTC.

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Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: coyotewhacker
Date: May 23, 2008 11:19AM
Flicker shads have a "normal" dive curve and are small baits. At 2 mph (leadcore is totally speed dependent) +/- a tenth or two,
it would take three colors to get to 15 feet, four colors to get to 20. Even that's not carved in stone....as walleyesrus said, let out the "textbook" amount of line and adjust as needed. If your lure never ticks bottom, you can let a bit more out. If it's digging in, you need to reel in a couple of fee (or more) until you're not digging a trench on the bottom. Trenches snag and keep a lot more lures than pulling one too high off the bottom. Flicker Shads are not on sale right now, so you're looking at a four dollar bill every time you leave one down there. Keep in mind that those lures running near the bottom require near constant attention.....if you steer the boat in a constant "S" pattern, the line on the inside will be slowing down (and sinking) while the line to the outside of the turn will be pulled faster and will rise. Again....you don't lose many lures as they rise, but those inside lines can run up a tab.Good luck.
If you plan on fishing Stockton with those Flicker shads, you might try the smaller size in silver/black back, bone, gold clown, and
white with chartreuse. When the walleyes get around to turning on, those color combos are some of the best producers. Blue and chrome is another producer.
CW



A man has got to know his limitations.
"Dirty Harry" Callaghan

Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: powerdive
Date: May 23, 2008 12:10PM
The small Flicker Shad, I figure to run 6-8' on mono. So I would give it "dive credit" for half that (3') as a starting point for leadcore, then add the amount of core necessary to get to 15' or 20'. At 5' per color, that would mean a total of 2.4 colors (72') for 15' and 3.4 colors (102') to hit 20' precisely at 2mph.

The larger Flicker Shad I would figure at 10-12' on mono, thus give it 5' on its own plus 2 colors of lead (60') to run at 15' or 3 colors (90') to run at 20', at 2mph.

By allowing for the lure's dive habit, my method may actually result in the lure running a tad higher than the other guys' methods, which ain't necessarily bad...

But as walleyesrus has stated, the math is just a way to get in the ballpark. If you want to run your bait just off bottom, let out line until you're bumping bottom, then either reel a few feet back in or speed up a hair to get the bait running there. That's probably how we all learned.:biggrin:

Good luck.

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Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: coyotewhacker
Date: May 23, 2008 12:29PM
....so that's why I lose so many crankbaits!:rofl: Most of the time I forget to factor in the amount of dive the lure has all by itself.
The longer the leader, the more the bait itself will affect the overall depth. Since going to much shorter (4 to 6 feet) leaders, I just do the math and start there. Most of the time, and especially at the depths we have been working lately, it does not get me into trouble.
It's those other times that seem to keep me going back to BPS for more crankbaits. The " 6:1 formula" should put my lure right at 30 feet deep with 180 feet of 18lb leadcore out going 2mph, but for some reason it often takes 190 feet to start the lure ticking the bottom. I have seen a normal small shad style crankbait digging bottom in 40 feet with 170 feet out....and still can't figure out why that happens. There must be some ridges on the south side of the Orleans Trail public use area that reach up and grab unsuspecting lures. Rich is very good about letting me know when the water begins to get shallow, but this happened repeatedly last weekend during long, straight pulls with no points or corners to worrry about.:confused:
CW



A man has got to know his limitations.
"Dirty Harry" Callaghan

Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: powerdive
Date: May 23, 2008 01:47PM
Every lure is different. Tuning matters. Speed can vary. Color lengths may not be accurate out of the box. Spools may hold different amounts of line. Reel counters may work differently. Underwater humps are not always smooth and even. Wind causes current that creates line lift. Hooks pick up debris. Strong thermoclines bow the line; cold water is heavier.

A thousand factors can impact your depth, sometimes by several feet. Things happen; you may not really know why, but you adapt and move on. Fishing is endless fun, because there's so much to think about and react to. Or not.:biggrin:

But as ReelXTC pointed out, success comes when you can repeat an effective presentation as precisely as possible. That's why it's important to pay attention.

Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: powerdive
Date: May 23, 2008 01:55PM
Quote
coyotewhacker
The longer the leader, the more the bait itself will affect the overall depth. CW

Maybe a little. I should point out that I use 7' to 10' leaders most of the time.

The deeper the water, the greater the margin for error. I think due to its thickness and the amount of Dacron in leadcore, the 5' Rule seems to fade a bit once you get to trolling beyond 30' deep. At that point, with all other things being equal, it seems to take a little more lead out to get that next 5' in running depth...and so on...

Just my view. Bullitt or TR might have a little better perspective on that.

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Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: Tablerock
Date: May 23, 2008 03:54PM
I actually use 4 feet per color most of the time......But I hate trolling at 2.0 mph.......That is PAINFULLY slow. As the water warms, I usually increase my speed anywhere from 2.2 to 2.7.....and occaisional faster......Break out the spoonplugs......!!!

Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: bullitt
Date: May 23, 2008 04:49PM
I use between 25 adn 20 feet of leader. I think it lets the lure wiggle a little better, but I have nothing to back that up. I usually troll lead at 2 mph if conditions will let me. I agree with PD that to get below 30 ft, you need a lure that will help. It's sometimes tough to get a #5 rap much deeper than that with leadcore unless you slow down.

Re: crank baits and depth
Anonymous User
Date: May 23, 2008 06:41PM
PD. I just inherited a double hand full of walley divers.
TL

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Re: crank baits and depth
Posted by: coyotewhacker
Date: May 23, 2008 09:49PM
Back in February before the first tournament, we were trolling leadcore down to 60+ feet with the same little cranks we're using now.
It takes a lot of lead to get there and takes a long time to get the fish in, but we fished as deep as 63 feet on the east side of the lake in the north cove that leads into the Quarry and out in the main lake over the old channel. From time to time I would hang up a lure, but only lost three or four. My main worry was losing 3/4 of a spool of new leadcore. We were trolling at just under 2mph, which would have given us a little bit more depth, but we had no trouble at all getting the little shad imitation lures way down deep.
We also fished several areas around the mouth of the Little Sac down to 50 feet before the lake was hit by the big rains. If we try to go that deep again, I think we might try divers to avoid the extreme amount of line out with leadcore. Depending on the hole combination, the company that makes them claims they will dive to 80 feet with a minimal amount (120' maybe???) of line out.
The one feature I like with the divers I have is that they dive to a specified depth and won't go any deeper, plus they are not speed dependent like leadcore is. I can see where if you go too slow they might not have enough water pressure to force them to dive as deep, but other than that it looks like they may have some potential, especially for trolling shallow with live bait.
CW



A man has got to know his limitations.
"Dirty Harry" Callaghan

Re: crank baits and depth
Anonymous User
Date: May 23, 2008 10:05PM
Had e-mail from dale, he filled out yesterday on jig and worm
in 15fow. 50ft??????

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